Source — AITW Ep001: The Rules-Based International Order¶
Metadata¶
| Field | Value |
|---|---|
| Episode | 1 |
| Title | The rules-based international order with Allan Gyngell and Darren Lim |
| Publication date | 2018-08-17 |
| Speakers | Allan Gyngell, Darren Lim |
| Guest | None |
| Duration | ~32 min |
Summary¶
The pilot episode of Australia in the World is also the clearest early statement of the intellectual framework that will carry the entire series. Allan's opening move is characteristically structural: Australia's interest in the rules-based international order is not a matter of sentiment or ideology but of size and location. "If you're a country Australia's size and located where we are, you're always going to be better off in a world in which the rules are known and followed and which you've played a part in setting rather than a world which is governed by power alone because we don't have all that much of it." The formulation is precise, modest, and devastating in its economy. It will recur — slightly reworded, slightly extended — across dozens of episodes, and its first appearance here sets the register for everything that follows.
What makes the pilot revealing as biography is less the substance than the method. Allan's mode is the teaching voice of someone who has lived inside the system he is analysing. When Darren poses the refugee hypocrisy challenge, Allan doesn't evade or over-argue; he acknowledges the tension, defends Australia's record briskly, then pivots to shared structural interest: "whatever the country that's complaining, have as much interest as we do in ensuring that international commerce flows freely." The instinct to disaggregate, to refuse binary framings, to say "it's going to be mixed" — on China, on Trump, on R2P — is already fully formed in episode one.
Two smaller moments are worth noting for what they reveal about Allan as a person. He mentions, in passing, that he organised a two-day AIIA/DFAT/ANU conference on the RBIO in July 2018 — a reminder that the podcast is an extension of institutional work he is already leading. And he closes the Brexit discussion with one of the earliest examples of his characteristic dry understatement: "Concentrating the minds over there enormously." The compression is the point. Allan does not reach for elaboration when a single phrase will do.
Key Topics¶
- Definition and character of the RBIO (not law; "fuzzy system")
- Australia's selective compliance (refugees vs. maritime rules)
- The Responsibility to Protect (R2P), Libya, and over-reach
- China as a mixed actor: supportive on trade, challenging on South China Sea
- Trump as an honest but destructive departure from US commitments
- The "embedded liberalism" bargain and populist pushback
- Domestic political support for openness (Australia vs. US/UK)
Key Quotations¶
On the character of the rules-based order¶
"The order has many different parts... it's not like the rule of law inside our country... it's always going to be a sort of a complex and rather fuzzy system in which countries are going to enthusiastically abide by some of the rules that suit them... and less enthusiastically perhaps or even ignore those that they don't."
— Allan Gyngell [00:03:30.260 --> 00:04:49.380]
On why Australia has a particular interest in the rules¶
"If you're a country Australia's size and located where we are, you're always going to be better off in a world in which the rules are known and followed and which you've played a part in setting rather than a world which is governed by power alone because we don't have all that much of it."
— Allan Gyngell [00:03:30.260 --> 00:04:49.380]
This is one of Allan's most important and characteristic formulations. It grounds Australia's interest in the RBIO in structural logic — size and location — rather than sentiment or ideology. It recurs, in different wordings, across many subsequent episodes.
On defending Australia's refugee record in diplomatic settings¶
"You defend as enthusiastically and strongly as you can Australia's position on the Refugee Convention... I would say more to the point the order has different dimensions... whatever the country that's complaining, have as much interest as we do in ensuring that international commerce flows freely, that tension and conflict is not sparked by people who are not following rules which all of us agreed to follow in the UN law of the sea convention."
— Allan Gyngell [00:05:36.720 --> 00:06:57.860]
Reveals Allan's diplomatic method: acknowledge the criticism, then pivot to shared interests in the particular domain at issue. Practical, not evasive.
On the RBIO constantly changing¶
"Even the rules-based order we've known since the end of the second world war has been constantly in flux. I mean when it started out we didn't have a UN convention on the law of the sea... there are new institutions now like the World Trade Organization... so of course the order is always changing because the world changes and it has to reflect that."
— Allan Gyngell [00:08:54.100 --> 00:10:56.100]
On Trump as more honest than previous presidents¶
"He's more honest about it and he's more blatant about it than others have been... the he's you know politically inside the United States it's no longer as easy to argue to the people of the midwest that this world has served them well... the cold war has ended and that was a really important element in keeping the United States committed to the order itself."
— Allan Gyngell [00:18:50.070 --> 00:19:49.880]
On the United States and the origins of the order¶
"The United States itself was the country which did more than any other to put in place the order which is now challenging... issues like a free and open international trading system are there because during the war the United States insisted that the allies... sign on to just such a world."
— Allan Gyngell [00:16:27.740 --> 00:17:44.070]
On the domestic politics of openness¶
"There's still a pretty broad appreciation here that international trade is good for us and that openness is not the divisive issue that it is in parts of europe and the United States but we certainly can't take that granted and we have to keep working at it."
— Allan Gyngell [00:27:23.720 --> 00:29:19.710]
On the "positive approach" (Doc Evatt, Chifley, Crawford)¶
"One of the interesting things about the Australian approach to this new post-war system from the beginning was the insistence... that this had to serve the interests of our domestic constituencies as well as others... issues like full employment were worked into the charter of the United Nations at Australian insistence."
— Allan Gyngell [00:27:23.720 --> 00:29:19.710]
Note: Allan is sitting in the Crawford School building at ANU, and names John Crawford explicitly. Historical consciousness and institutional pride evident.
On why holding the line on trade matters¶
"We have to hold the line not simply because it's good for us but because basic economics says that we're all going to be better off if we don't put up the sort of protectionist barriers that brought disaster in the 1930s."
— Allan Gyngell [00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:48.510]
On Brexit¶
"Concentrating the minds over there enormously."
— Allan Gyngell [00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:03.030]
Dry, compressed wit. One of the earliest examples of Allan's signature understatement.
Evidence Relevant to Allan's Views¶
- Australia's structural interest in the RBIO: size and location, not sentiment
- China is a "mixed" actor: supportive in some domains, challenging in others; "it's not binary"
- Trump is dangerous not because he's unusual but because he's honest about what other presidents obscured
- The RBIO was always evolving; nostalgia for a fixed "original" order is misplaced
- Australia's domestic support for openness is an asset that must be maintained actively
Evidence Relevant to Allan's Style and Persona¶
- Opens the pilot by laying out the analytical framework directly and systematically
- Deploys structural logic (size, location, power) to explain policy preferences
- Uses historical examples readily: post-WWI, Cold War, 1930s protectionism
- Uses the word "fuzzy" to resist false precision
- Dry understatement on Brexit: "Concentrating the minds over there enormously"
- Teaching voice: explains the RBIO from first principles without condescension
- Comfortable with complexity and contradiction; does not resolve tensions artificially
Biographical Fragments¶
- Speaks as a former diplomat: "when I read speeches from Foreign Minister Julie Bishop and other senior officials" — familiar with government speech registers
- Organized the AIIA/DFAT/ANU conference on the RBIO in July 2018 (mentioned by Darren)
- Published an op-ed on the RBIO in the Australian Financial Review that week ("recording in late July")
- Sitting in the Crawford School building at ANU — institutional home base is clearly this precinct
Characteristic Phrases¶
- "If you're a country Australia's size and located where we are..."
- "It's not like the rule of law inside our country..."
- "He's more honest about it and he's more blatant about it..."
- "Concentrating the minds over there enormously" (Brexit)
Relevance to Central Biographical Question¶
This pilot episode establishes the intellectual register that defines the series. Allan demonstrates immediately: - Structural reasoning: grounding Australia's foreign policy interests in the logic of size and location - Historical depth: fluent reference to the 1940s founding of the post-war order, 1930s protectionism, Cold War dynamics - Precise hedging: "always going to be a sort of a complex and rather fuzzy system" - Earned authority: he doesn't assert; he explains, and the explanation carries its own weight
The Australia-as-mid-sized-power framing is one of Allan's core analytical moves, and it debuts here in its clearest form.
Open Questions¶
- What was the full conference program from the AIIA/DFAT/ANU July 2018 conference on the RBIO? Would illuminate Allan's intellectual networks and themes at this moment.
- Does the AFR op-ed Allan mentions reveal sharper positions than the podcast allows?