Source — AITW Ep032 — The Australia-China Relationship¶

Episode Metadata¶

Field	Value
Episode number	32
Title	Ep. 32: The Australia-China Relationship
Publication date	2019-10-23
Recording date	Monday, 21 October 2019
Guests	None (Allan and Darren only)
Allan present	Yes
Format	Long-form analysis anchored to Allan's Australian Foreign Affairs article

Summary¶

Allan and Darren discuss Allan's recently published piece in Australian Foreign Affairs — titled by the editor "History Hasn't Ended, How to Handle China" (Allan's own title was "The Strangeness We Feel," taken from a Katie Leng song). The episode is the most sustained treatment of the Australia-China relationship in the corpus to this point. Allan explains his analytical framework: China as a "fairly normal major power," policy broadly right across governments, implementation inconsistent; the centrist middle ground being squeezed out; the antidote is "calm down, deep breath, welcome to the new world." Reading recommendation: Adam Gopnik's A Thousand Small Sanities, which Allan identifies explicitly as the philosophical tradition he belongs to.

Key Quotations¶

Writing as method for thinking¶

"I was in danger, you know, as we all are, of simply responding ad hoc to issues as they came up. And for someone like me, writing is the best way of working out what I think about some things. So I did that. I made clear to myself what I thought and, you know, I hope that it will help others either by agreeing or disagreeing with it to work out for themselves what they think."

— [00:02:30.200 --> 00:03:47.970]

An important self-disclosure about intellectual method. Writing is not communication after thinking; it is how the thinking happens. "For someone like me" signals that this is not universal — it is a personal characteristic, not a recommendation. He identifies the pathology it corrects: responding "ad hoc to issues as they came up" without ever settling on a position. This elaborates the "I like writing" disclosure from Ep023 and adds a methodological dimension: writing produces clarity of position, not just expression of one.

"The Strangeness We Feel" — Katie Leng and the original title¶

"The title of the piece was set by the editor. I called it The Strangeness We Feel because that was a line from a Katie Leng song, which just happened to be floating around in my head all the time. And I thought, yeah, that gets it. This is a really unusual time for Australia."

— [00:04:18.200 --> 00:08:21.200]

A characteristic disclosure: Allan's chosen title for his major policy article was a lyric from a pop/indie song ("The Strangeness We Feel" by Katie Leng) that "kept floating around in my head." This is consistent with his use of cultural texts to name political realities — he found in a song lyric a precision about the Australia-China situation that policy language couldn't supply. The editor overruled him ("History Hasn't Ended"). The biographical implication is that he was listening to Katie Leng during the period he was working on the piece.

China as "fairly normal major power" — Cold War as reference point¶

"I do think of China as a sort of fairly normal major power. I mean, we all bring our histories to this and a core part of my working life was spent on the Cold War and dealing with the Soviet Union. And in comparison with that, I do see China's interests as being much more familiar than those of the Soviet Union, where it wants to get its own way in the world at minimum cost to itself. It wants to advance its own interests. It wants to be held in respect and regard. But I don't think it wants to impose its system on the rest of the world."

— [00:13:37.200 --> 00:14:46.200]

The Cold War is deployed here not as rhetoric but as an actual analytical reference point: Allan spent "a core part of his working life" on it, and uses that experience to calibrate his assessment of China. Compared to the Soviet Union, China is "more familiar" — a word that implies not friendliness but recognisability. A state that wants its own way, wants respect, and does not proselytise its system is a state that can be managed through traditional statecraft. He is not naïve — he acknowledges China is not a superpower yet and has internal fragility — but the strategic logic is not ideologically driven the way Soviet logic was.

"Boring pragmatists in whom I would count myself"¶

"You have this sort of coordinated view that puts greater weight on values and the need for us to be seen to be doing something to stand up to China, squeezing out the sort of middle ground of boring pragmatists in whom I would count myself."

— [00:09:07.200 --> 00:10:10.200]

Allan's self-location in the China debate. Both left and right are putting values above pragmatic management; the middle ground — where good analysis lives — is being squeezed. "Boring pragmatists" is self-deprecating but precise: boring because not exciting, not ideological, not apocalyptic; pragmatist because focused on what works rather than what is morally satisfying. "In whom I would count myself" is deliberately understated. He is naming himself as a representative of the marginalised sensible centre — a familiar position in the corpus, but rarely named so directly.

"I don't pretend to be a China scholar myself. My expertise is in Australian foreign policy."¶

"I don't sort of pretend to be a China scholar myself. My expertise is in Australian foreign policy."

— [00:16:31.200 --> 00:17:58.200]

A precise disciplinary self-identification. This is said while rejecting Darren's IR theory argument about China's domestic fragility — Allan's pushback is epistemological as much as substantive: he doesn't claim China expertise, but he can assess what the China scholars he knows do and don't say. His field is Australian foreign policy, and his China engagement is through that lens — how Australia should manage the relationship, not a deep-dives analysis of Chinese domestic politics.

Policy prescription: "calm down, deep breath, welcome to the new world"¶

"The central policy prescription that I have, I guess, is really calm down, deep breath, welcome to the new world."

— [00:27:31.960 --> 00:28:29.210]

Deliberately anticlimactic. After pages of careful analysis in the Australian Foreign Affairs piece and a long podcast, Allan's summary prescription is three short phrases: stop the anxiety spiral, take a breath, and accept that the world is different. The irony is that this is genuinely what he believes — the Chinese relationship is not an existential crisis, it is a management problem that rewards steadiness. "Welcome to the new world" signals acceptance rather than alarm: this is the condition, not a catastrophe.

"For someone not on social media, the different worlds that you and I sometimes inhabit, because things arise and surge and agitate and claims are made and dashed or fulfilled in a short period, and I'm totally oblivious to all these things that have been happening. So I suppose it's a bit of self-justification here on my part."

— [00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:32.840]

Allan acknowledges that his social media absence means he inhabits "a different world" from Darren and the networked commentary class. The calm he is able to maintain is partly structural: he literally doesn't see the daily surges and panics that distort the discourse. He acknowledges this might be "self-justification" — but the implication is that the self-justification might also be correct. Being structurally insulated from the 24-hour cycle is one source of his steadiness of judgment.

"You are an old romantic, aren't you, Darren?"¶

"You are an old romantic, aren't you, Darren? I've noticed this about you."

— [00:33:05.120 --> 00:33:09.400]

Context: Darren recommends a romantic comedy. Allan's teasing observation is delivered with obvious affection. "I've noticed this about you" suggests accumulated attention — he has been watching Darren across episodes and forming a picture. A rare moment of personal observation directed at Darren rather than the world.

Biographical Fragments¶

Evidence type: Confirmed (new formulation)

"A core part of my working life was spent on the Cold War and dealing with the Soviet Union" — the strongest formulation yet of Cold War work as career-defining. In earlier episodes (Ep013, Ep026), Soviet/intelligence work was confirmed specifically (Five Eyes, ONA Soviet analyst April 1986). Here Allan describes it as "a core part of my working life" — not an episode or a posting but something central to his career formation. This retroactively elevates the significance of the Chernobyl (Ep026) and Five Eyes (Ep013) confirmations. (Ep032)
Writes for Australian Foreign Affairs magazine — the article "History Hasn't Ended, How to Handle China" (editor's title; Allan's title: "The Strangeness We Feel") appeared in the October 2019 issue. This confirms Allan as a regular contributor to serious policy journalism, not just podcasting and think-tank events. (Ep032)
"Writing is the best way of working out what I think about some things" — explicit methodological disclosure. Writing as thinking-process, not post-thought expression. Corroborates Ep023's "I like writing" with a functional explanation. (Ep032)
Was listening to Katie Leng during the period he was writing the Australian Foreign Affairs piece — the phrase "The Strangeness We Feel" "kept floating around in my head all the time." (Ep032)

Style and Method Evidence¶

Disciplinary precision: "My expertise is in Australian foreign policy" — refuses China-scholar status while deploying comparative analytical judgments. He knows what he knows and what he doesn't.
Cold War as calibration: Using the Soviet Union as a benchmark for China is not lazy Cold War analogising — it is explicit, methodologically conscious comparison. He acknowledges "we all bring our histories to this."
The boring centre: "Boring pragmatists in whom I would count myself" is Allan's most direct self-placement in the China debate. Not a hawk, not a dove — a centre that bores precisely because it insists on calibration rather than drama.
Anticlimactic prescription: "Calm down, deep breath, welcome to the new world" is deliberately low-key. He mistrusts policy prescriptions that demand grand action; steadiness is itself a policy.

Reading, Listening and Watching¶

Allan — Adam Gopnik, A Thousand Small Sanities: The Moral Adventure of Liberalism (Riverhead Books, 2019)

"I really recommend a book I've just finished called A Thousand Small Sanities, The Moral Adventure of Liberalism by the wonderful essayist for the New Yorker, Adam Gopnik. I don't know if you've read any of his stuff, but there's virtually nothing that he can't write engagingly about. And this is a beautifully written defence of the philosophical tradition that I identify with myself, but in the proper way of Liberal's Gopnik tests its claims soundly and fairly against the critiques of authoritarianism and conservatism on the right and radicalism in its different varieties on the left. So it's an elegant refresher course on where the values of free speech, representative democracy, rule of law, racial and gender equality that we define as Australia's national values, where they come from and how they need to be defended."

— [00:31:35.440 --> 00:32:40.680]

An unusually explicit identification with a philosophical tradition. Allan says Gopnik is defending "the philosophical tradition that I identify with myself." Combined with the Pinker recommendation (Ep002 — empirical optimism about progress), this builds a picture of Allan's philosophical formation: a classical liberal with an empirical cast, grounded in Enlightenment values of free speech, democracy, rule of law, and equality. He praises Gopnik for testing the tradition's claims fairly against its critics — the same intellectual discipline he brings to his own work. "Virtually nothing that he can't write engagingly about" is a genuine compliment from someone who takes writing seriously.

Also noted: Katie Leng — unnamed song containing the phrase "The Strangeness We Feel"

Allan was listening to Katie Leng while writing his Australian Foreign Affairs piece. The lyric "the strangeness we feel" was "floating around in my head all the time" — he chose it as his original title before the editor changed it. This is a music reference embedded in a disclosure about writing process rather than a formal reading segment recommendation.

Open Questions¶

The Australian Foreign Affairs piece ("History Hasn't Ended" / "The Strangeness We Feel") — what is the full argument? The podcast covers the main themes but a full reading would add detail.
Allan says "every government since Kevin Rudd's has had more or less the same approach to China." Does he develop this claim in later episodes — particularly after the relationship deteriorates further in 2020?
Does Allan return to Gopnik's A Thousand Small Sanities later in the corpus? The explicit identification with the liberal tradition it defends is one of the strongest values-disclosures in the series.
Katie Leng — what song contains "the strangeness we feel"? Worth identifying for the full biographical picture.