Source — AITW Ep024 — Director-General of ASIS in His First Ever Interview¶

Episode Metadata¶

Field	Value
Episode number	24
Title	Ep. 24: Director-General of ASIS in his first ever interview
Publication date	2019-07-24
Guests	Paul Symon (Director-General, ASIS)
Allan present	Yes (as host interviewer)
Format	Guest interview; Allan conducts; no reading segment

Summary¶

Interview episode with Paul Symon, who became Director-General of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service in December 2017 — his first-ever public interview. Allan hosts with Darren in a supporting role. The episode is significant for the corpus on two levels: (1) it contains a first-person biographical confirmation from Allan that he was heading ONA at the same time Symon was Director of DIO (2011–2014), giving the first dating evidence for Allan's ONA role; and (2) it reveals the depth of Allan's intelligence community relationships and institutional knowledge. Symon and Allan are clearly old colleagues with shared professional vocabulary and mutual respect. The episode is publicly oriented — Symon explaining ASIS's functions, accountability mechanisms, and recruitment — rather than analytically substantive in the usual AITW mode.

Key Quotations¶

Allan confirms ONA headship in first person — with dating¶

"From 2011 to 2014, he was Director of the Defence Intelligence Organisation and a close colleague of mine when I was heading the Other National Foreign Assessment Agency, the Office of National Assessments."

— [00:01:09.390 --> 00:02:54.390]

This is Allan's own first-person confirmation of his ONA Director-General role. He had been identified as ONA DG by Darren in Ep019 ("the agency you used to lead, Allan"), but here Allan says it himself: "when I was heading... the Office of National Assessments." The phrase "close colleague of mine" combined with Symon's DIO period (2011–2014) provides the first dating evidence: Allan was ONA Director-General at some point overlapping with 2011–2014. This is the most significant career dating evidence in the corpus to this point.

The intelligence community: collector vs. assessor distinction¶

"And look, as part of this therapy session, I would just add, and Paul would, I'm sure, agree with me because we both headed assessments and analytical organisations, that contribution is made by academics and scholars and journalists and thinkers. So the way in which we frame and think about the world is sort of fundamental to the work that the national security community has to do."

— [00:28:05.390 --> 00:30:23.390]

Allan speaks from both sides of the divide — he ran an assessments agency (ONA) while Symon ran collection agencies. He explicitly invokes the shared perspective: "we both headed assessments and analytical organisations." ONA is the all-source assessment agency; DIO and ASIS are collection and assessment agencies on the defence side. Allan's point to Darren — that academic and scholarly contributions shape how the community frames problems — is both true and self-serving in the best sense: it validates Darren's work while accurately describing how assessment relies on the broader intellectual ecosystem.

"We're not the silver bullet"¶

"We're not the silver bullet. We shouldn't be the agency of choice to do that. But in the golf bag with lots of clubs, there is a place for an organisation like ASIS."

— Paul Symon [00:39:21.390 --> 00:40:18.390]

Symon's phrase, not Allan's — but Allan draws out the "action organisation" framing immediately after: "from the description you've given, we should think of ASIS as an action organisation as well as a collection organisation." This is characteristic Allan: adding the analytical category that captures what has just been said.

Allan's closing remarks: "someone who's been in the privileged position"¶

"As someone who's been in the privileged position over, you know, very many decades, really, of seeing some of the great work that ASIS does, it's fantastic to be able to hear about the way in which the organization is now operating and responding to these new challenges."

— [00:48:53.390 --> 00:49:35.390]

"Very many decades" of exposure to ASIS's work — from the consumer side (ONA assessed intelligence that ASIS collected) and from earlier career positions. Allan is warmly appreciative without being sycophantic. The phrase "privileged position" reflects his unusual access: most Australians have had none; he has had several decades of it.

Biographical Fragments¶

Evidence type: Confirmed — MAJOR DATING DISCOVERY

Allan was ONA Director-General concurrent with Paul Symon's DIO directorship (2011–2014) — Allan's own words: "a close colleague of mine when I was heading the Other National Foreign Assessment Agency, the Office of National Assessments." Symon was DIO Director from 2011 to 2014. This is the first evidence placing Allan's ONA DG tenure within a specific date range: he was ONA DG at some point in the 2011–2014 window, likely across most or all of it. (Ep024)
Allan observed ASIS's work "over very many decades" — at the close of the interview: "someone who's been in the privileged position over, you know, very many decades, really, of seeing some of the great work that ASIS does." Consistent with a career from 1969 through 2019 in positions that consumed ASIS product (ONA, PM&C, PM's office). (Ep024)

Career arc update: The Lowy Institute was founded in 2003. Allan was founding Executive Director (Ep023). Symon was DIO Director 2011–2014 and Allan's "close colleague" at ONA. This suggests Allan left the Lowy Institute and returned to government service sometime before or around 2011, becoming ONA DG. The post-1996 non-government period would then have run approximately 1996–~2010, during which he founded and led the Lowy Institute.

Style and Method Evidence¶

Institutional precision: Allan's introduction of Symon is a model of clarity — citing the history of ASIS (1901 New Caledonia agent; 1952 Menzies founding; 2001 formal legislation), the intelligence community structure (10 agencies, ~$2 billion, ~7,000 staff), and Symon's career path. He has command of this material.
"Collector vs. assessor": Allan repeatedly returns to this structural distinction during the interview. It is his native framework for the intelligence community — because he ran the assessor side.
Adds the category: "from the description you've given, we should think of ASIS as an action organisation as well as a collection organisation" — Allan names the analytical move after Symon has made the substantive point.
Democracy and accountability: Allan frames the oversight question carefully: "You're trying, as you just said, to do things that you don't want anyone to know about. And in some cases, which the Australian government could deny if they ever came out. So how can the Australian public be confident that you're acting in ways that are consistent with the law and with our values when none of us knows what you're doing?" Clean, precise, and non-leading.

Open Questions¶

Was Allan ONA DG from 2011 onwards, or earlier? Symon's 2011–2014 DIO period gives a window, but Allan may have become ONA DG before 2011. Further dating evidence needed.
When did Allan leave the Lowy Institute to return to government service as ONA DG? The gap between Lowy founding (2003) and ONA DG (overlap with 2011–2014) is not yet specified.
Allan says he has seen ASIS's work "over very many decades" — does this mean he was consuming ASIS product from early in his career, or specifically from his ONA DG role?