Source — AITW Ep035 — Ex-ASIO Head Duncan Lewis (Part 1): Military & Government Career and the Challenge of Terrorism¶

Episode Metadata¶

Field	Value
Episode number	35
Title	Ep. 35: Ex-ASIO head Duncan Lewis (Part 1): on his military & govt career, and the challenge of terrorism
Publication date	2019-12-18
Guests	Duncan Lewis (former Director-General, ASIO; former Secretary of Defence; former National Security Advisor)
Allan present	Yes — hosts solo in studio; Darren calls in
Format	Part 1 of a two-part interview. Covers Lewis's military career, transition to PM&C, NSA role, Secretary of Defence, and ASIO DG years (terrorism)

Summary¶

Allan interviews Duncan Lewis — whose career arc (ADF → PM&C → National Security Advisor → Secretary of Defence → Ambassador to Belgium/EU/NATO → ASIO DG) is described as "unique in our country's modern history." The episode is primarily Lewis's biography and analysis. Allan's contributions are largely facilitative, but one pivotal biographical disclosure occurs mid-interview: Allan says "I'd come back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA" while framing the period when he and Lewis first worked together on Afghanistan and the NSC. This is the first explicit first-person confirmation of the Lowy → ONA career transition in Allan's own words, and it places the transition in the period when Lewis was operating as National Security Advisor (Rudd era, from late 2007).

No reading segment (Part 1 of 2).

Key Quotations¶

"I'd come back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA"¶

"This is the period that you and I first began to work together. I'd come back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA and I wanted to ask you about Afghanistan... that was a subject on which we spent many hours, countless hours together in the NSC and various interdepartmental meetings talking about Australian engagement."

— [00:13:22.620 --> 00:14:40.040]

The most explicit first-person confirmation yet of the Lowy Institute → ONA transition. Allan states it directly: he "came back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA." The timing is established by context: the period when he and Lewis were working together on Afghanistan in NSC and interdepartmental meetings — which corresponds to Lewis's role as National Security Advisor (appointed by Kevin Rudd, who took office November 2007) and subsequently as Secretary of Defence (from 2011). The "coming back" formulation implies a return to government from an outside period — the Lowy Institute years (from 2003) represent a departure from government, and the ONA DG appointment represents the return. This is almost certainly in the Rudd government era (2007–2010), though the precise date remains unconfirmed in the corpus.

Allan introduces Lewis — "unique in our country's modern history"¶

"The breadth of his experience in senior national Security positions in Australia is unique in our country's modern history... We have to have lived in the Canberra environment for as long as me to appreciate just how remarkable that career trajectory is."

— [00:01:30.700 --> 00:02:47.380]

Allan rarely uses "unique" or "remarkable" without careful qualification. Here he uses both, and frames the assessment as requiring his own long Canberra experience to make: only someone who had "lived in the Canberra environment for as long as me" could fully appreciate the depth of Lewis's trajectory. This is a self-referential compliment — it marks both Lewis's exceptionalism and Allan's standing to judge it.

"Excellent choice"¶

[Lewis, on being approached by Howard to join PM&C]: "I came to the view quite quickly that that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be working in one organisation with the hand of another up the back of my shirt." [Allan]: "Excellent choice."

— [00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:17.180]

Two words, perfectly timed. Lewis is describing his decision to insist on independence from another agency before agreeing to join PM&C. Allan's instant endorsement — "Excellent choice" — is dry, knowing, and unmistakably the response of someone who has lived inside the same institutional politics and knows exactly what "the hand of another up the back of your shirt" feels like. It is one of the fastest and most economical expressions of shared professional understanding in the corpus.

"You've forgotten Luxembourg again" (Darren)¶

[Allan]: "You had a couple of years as Ambassador to Belgium, the EU and NATO..." [Darren]: "Don't forget Luxembourg, Allan. You've forgotten Luxembourg again." [Lewis]: "Small country, slightly to the right of Belgium."

— [00:22:54.620 --> 00:23:07.040]

A small comic moment: Darren catches Allan omitting Luxembourg from Lewis's ambassadorial titles — again, implying he had done it earlier in the conversation too. Allan accepts the correction without protest. Lewis's deadpan "slightly to the right of Belgium" gets the best line of the exchange.

On Afghanistan — "the great problem with military deployments"¶

"The great problem with military deployments is that... it is far easier to become engaged than to disengage. So once you commit to a military operation, that's comparatively easy, certainly when compared to trying to get out of it. And so the end was always going to be a bit messy."

— [00:15:09.640 --> 00:20:00.140]

Lewis's observation, which Allan invites and frames. The structural logic — easier to enter than exit — is a principle Allan has applied throughout the corpus (Iraq, Syria, the Middle East broadly). Allan's framing of the question invites Lewis to confirm a structural claim that Allan himself holds.

Biographical Fragments¶

Evidence type: Confirmed (major)

"I'd come back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA" — First-person, unprompted confirmation of the career transition. Allan left the Lowy Institute (where he was founding Executive Director from 2003) and returned to government as ONA Director-General. The transition is placed in the period when Lewis was National Security Advisor (Rudd government, from late 2007) and when Afghanistan was a major NSC agenda item. This places Allan's ONA DG appointment most likely in 2007–2009, consistent with: (a) Rudd's election November 2007; (b) the ONA DG role continuing into the Symon DIO overlap (2011–2014); (c) Allan's confirmed statement that he was "not in government in the late 1990s" (Ep022) but was later at ONA. The Rudd era is the most plausible window for the Lowy → ONA transition. (Ep035)
Worked with Duncan Lewis in NSC and interdepartmental meetings on Afghanistan — direct first-person statement: "countless hours together in the NSC and various interdepartmental meetings talking about Australian engagement." This confirms Allan participated actively in the National Security Committee structure during his ONA DG tenure. As DG of ONA, he would have been a regular NSC participant — ONA provides assessments directly to the PM and NSC. (Ep035)

Style and Method Evidence¶

Introduction as biographical precision: Allan's introduction of Lewis names his career stops in exact chronological order with institutional context — the same precision he brings to any analytical task. "We have to have lived in the Canberra environment for as long as me to appreciate just how remarkable that career trajectory is" marks both the subject and the speaker.
"Excellent choice": Instant recognition of shared institutional experience. Two words communicating decades of context.
Question framing as analytical scaffolding: Allan's questions consistently introduce the structural context before asking Lewis to fill it in. "Now, after this period of very intense growth and engagement in combat, you then leave the army and are appointed to a very senior position at the centre of the Australian Public Service in PM and C. How did that happen? Because it is not unusual." The "Because it is not unusual" is the analytical hook — it frames the question as diagnostic, not biographical.

Reading, Listening and Watching¶

No reading/watching/listening segment in this episode (Part 1 of 2).

Open Questions¶

When precisely did Allan transition from Lowy Institute to ONA DG? "I'd come back from the Lowy Institute to run ONA" in the context of Lewis as NSA (Rudd, from Nov 2007) and the Afghanistan NSC work strongly suggests 2007–2009. A Rudd-era appointment would be consistent with Labor returning to power. Is there any further confirmation in later episodes?
Does Part 2 (Ep036) contain further Allan biographical material? The Lewis interview continues — foreign interference and national security policy-making structure are the Part 2 topics.
Allan says "countless hours" on Afghanistan in the NSC — does he ever elaborate on his analytical views on the Afghanistan campaign beyond the brief framing questions here?