Source — AITW Ep011: Dennis Richardson¶

Metadata¶

Field	Value
Episode	11
Title	Dennis Richardson
Publication date	2019-01-09
Speakers	Allan Gyngell (interviewer), Darren Lim (additional questions), Dennis Richardson (guest)
Guest	Dennis Richardson — former Secretary DFAT; former Secretary Defence; former Australian Ambassador to the United States; former Head of ASIO; currently conducting a review of intelligence and security legislation
Duration	~58 min

Summary¶

Allan conducts the primary interview of Dennis Richardson — identified explicitly as "a very old friend of mine" and a colleague from the very start of both their careers at the Department of External Affairs. This is one of the most biographical episodes in the early series: Allan reveals that both he and Richardson arrived in Canberra at age 21, in the same graduate intake at the Department of External Affairs (the institution later renamed DFAT). The interview covers Australia's evolution in international engagement since the 1960s, the centralisation of decision-making, the securitisation of foreign policy, the limits of American power, the US-China balance, and the qualities required in political leaders. Allan's role as questioner rather than analyst gives unusual insight into his intellectual priorities.

Key Topics¶

Australia's changed international role since 1969 (expanded engagement, different orientation)
Centralisation of decision-making: NSC, ministerial advisers, secure communications
Securitisation of foreign policy as a systemic trend
Limits of US power: Syria and Obama's red line as case study
Australia as "friends to both, ally to one" — can this be sustained?
Qualities required in political leaders: curiosity, preparedness, decisiveness under uncertainty
Gender in defence and public service
Richardson's career trajectory: DFAT, Defence, ASIO, ASIO, Ambassador, legislation review

Key Quotations from Allan (as interviewer)¶

Framing Richardson's career and the shared beginning¶

"Dennis is one of Australia's most distinguished public servants and a very old friend of mine... You and I have known each other for a long time. We were both 21 when we arrived in Canberra to start our careers as what would now be called graduate trainees in what was then called the Department of External Affairs and that's a few years ago."

— Allan Gyngell [00:00:44.000 --> 00:03:05.300]

Key biographical fact: both started at the Department of External Affairs at age 21. Richardson started in 1969 (confirmed by subsequent discussion). This means Allan also entered the foreign policy profession in 1969 — the beginning of his "five decades of experience" referenced in Ep113.

Pressing Richardson on the nature of change¶

"You've seen Australia act in the world from so many different perspectives over the course of a long career. What do you see as the principal differences between the way Australia behaved and acted at the beginning of your time in the international policy area and the way it is now?"

— Allan Gyngell [00:00:44.000 --> 00:03:05.300]

On centralisation and the Jerusalem decision¶

"One of the factors is this big news with which the Jerusalem announcement came out of the Prime Minister's office that night, and Foreign Minister Payne, who, I understand, was not consulted, sent some fairly angry text messages over the secure messaging service..."

— Darren Lim (framing the question)

Allan follows up by pressing on whether Donald Trump's Twitter habit has changed what is expected of all political leaders permanently:

"Whether after the revolutionary change that President Trump has brought to the business of US policy making... it's now going to be essential for every American president and before long Australian Prime Minister... to do that constant commentary on the passing parade which inevitably has policy consequences."

— Allan Gyngell [00:12:04.400 --> 00:13:14.880]

Affectionate memory test¶

"You surprised me once by saying that you regarded the... Defence [job] as... [harder than DFAT]. Was I drinking? No it was coffee so you're probably on the green tea or something, you can't be blamed for that."

— Allan Gyngell [00:16:04.560 --> 00:18:02.280]

Warmth and teasing. The relationship between Allan and Richardson is clearly genuine; the podcast gives it room to breathe.

On sustaining "friends to both, ally to one"¶

"You've said publicly a couple of times that in Australia's relationship with the United States and China we are friends to both, ally to one. I just wonder whether in the light of recent events... is it still possible for us to sustain that line and if so how do we do it?"

— Allan Gyngell [00:24:54.800 --> 00:27:40.620]

On qualities of political leaders¶

"Since you first went to work for Bob Hawke... for around 30 years now you've been working closely and personally with Australia's most senior political leaders... I'm not going to ask you to rate the politicians... I did want to ask you: what are the qualities that you think our policy makers need to be successful in the world we've now got?"

— Allan Gyngell [00:37:33.540 --> 00:41:25.060]

Key Richardson Quotations¶

On Australia's changed role¶

Richardson describes Australia's expanded engagement since 1969: from a country focused primarily on the UK, US, and immediate region, to one with genuinely global interests and relationships.

On centralisation¶

Richardson notes that centralisation has increased under every PM from Hawke onwards, partly for legitimate reasons (speed of events, communications technology) and partly because of the decline in trust between ministers and their departments. The Jerusalem example is an extreme but not unprecedented case.

On "friends to both, ally to one"¶

Richardson defends the formulation as accurate and sustainable, arguing that genuine friendship with China is not incompatible with the security alliance with the US, but requires clear-eyed honesty about where interests align and diverge.

On leadership qualities¶

Richardson argues that the most important quality in a political leader is curiosity and genuine preparedness — the willingness to read the briefs, to ask questions, to understand the issues before having to decide on them under pressure. He notes that not all leaders have this.

Biographical Significance of this Episode¶

This episode is one of the most important for understanding Allan:

Career origin confirmed: Both Allan and Richardson entered the Department of External Affairs in approximately 1969 at age 21. Allan's "five decades of foreign policy experience" (mentioned in Ep113) is confirmed as beginning circa 1969.
Intellectual and personal network: Richardson is "a very old friend" — they have known each other for about 50 years at the time of this recording. Allan is personally embedded in the most senior levels of Australian foreign and security policy.
Allan's role as interviewer: He prioritises questions about institutional change, the qualities of leaders, and how structures affect policy — not just policy content. He is interested in how foreign policy is made, not just what is decided.
Affectionate relationship: The warmth and teasing ("Was I drinking?") shows a deep personal friendship, and that Allan is comfortable deploying humour even in a recorded interview context.

Evidence Relevant to Allan's Style¶

As interviewer, he prepares carefully and asks precise questions
He is comfortable with long, ruminative answers — he does not interrupt or rush
He names Richardson's formulations back to him ("friends to both, ally to one") and asks whether they still hold
He allows personal warmth to show in a professional context

Characteristic Phrases (Allan as interviewer)¶

"A very old friend of mine" (introducing Richardson)
"That's a few years ago" (deadpan about 50 years)
"Was I drinking?" (affectionate teasing)

Open Questions¶

What specific role did Allan play at the Department of External Affairs in his early career?
Does Allan's relationship with Richardson generate other biographical material later in the series?
Richardson mentions working with Bob Hawke from early in his career — does this indicate Allan had similar exposure to the Hawke era?