Source — AITW Ep021 — Interview with Rebecca Skinner, Associate Secretary at Defence¶

Episode Metadata¶

Field	Value
Episode number	21
Title	Ep. 21: Interview with Rebecca Skinner, Associate Secretary at Defence
Publication date	2019-06-07
Guests	Rebecca Skinner, Associate Secretary, Department of Defence
Allan present	Yes — leads the interview
Format	Guest interview; Allan as primary interviewer; no reading/watching segment

Summary¶

A guest interview with Rebecca Skinner, the second-most senior civilian in the Department of Defence. Allan conducts most of the questioning. The episode is primarily valuable for the portrait of Australian defence bureaucracy it offers, and for what it reveals about Allan as an interviewer: the precision of his framing, his comfort with sensitive topics (gender, contestability), and his occasional dry aside. His substantive contribution is limited but includes a significant observation about how quickly Canberra consensus forms and how hard it is to achieve genuine contestability of advice. No reading/watching segment.

Allan as Interviewer: Method and Style¶

Introducing a guest with institutional precision¶

"It's a great pleasure for me to be here in the ANU's Crawford School audio cupboard with one of the most senior women working on Australia's national security, Rebecca Skinner. Rebecca holds the position of Associate Secretary, and we'll talk a bit about what that means in the Department of Defence."

— [00:01:14.660 --> 00:03:05.160]

Allan's introductions are always structured: role, then significance of the role, then career arc. He leads with the institutional position before the person.

Not a generic question — a specific one¶

"I don't want to ask a generic question here but a specific one. In what ways has your own career and thinking been shaped by your gender or hasn't it really at all?"

— [00:20:11.660 --> 00:21:34.660]

Allan flags the methodological move before making it: instead of asking about gender diversity in general, he asks Skinner about her own experience. The framing respects the guest while making the question harder to deflect. "Or hasn't it really at all" — he leaves room for a negative answer, which is itself unusual.

Flagging the diarchy as globally unusual¶

"One of the unusual things about Defence in a structural sense is that you operate as what's called a diarchy with Greg Moriarty and the Chief of the Defence Force, General Angus Campbell, jointly responsible for the management of the Defence enterprise... in global terms, that's quite an unusual approach, I think. We've all seen external commentary hinting that the public servants don't really understand the business of war fighting and are somehow a drag on Defence preparedness. Now, I have to say that that's never been my impression."

— [00:08:25.660 --> 00:09:20.660]

Allan sets up the question honestly: he names the criticism he's heard before asking the guest to respond. He also discloses his own prior view — "that's never been my impression" — without foreclosing the answer.

Canberra consensus and contestability¶

"I've spent much of my professional life in the Canberra environment and in my experience a Canberra consensus arises very, very quickly around any given subject and getting contestability into the system is hard work."

— [00:35:29.660 --> 00:36:26.000]

A direct observation from career experience. "Canberra consensus arises very, very quickly" — a structural observation about how bureaucratic groupthink forms, delivered as a known problem rather than an accusation. The comment draws on his own decades navigating the system.

Dry aside on banks¶

"That's the nicest thing I've heard anyone say about banks for a long time."

— [00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:32.660]

Skinner had praised banks' digital service transformation. Allan's one-liner is well-timed and earns a laugh — but it also acknowledges the post-Royal Commission context without belaboring it. Characteristic: funny, pointed, brief.

Affirming Skinner's whole-of-government point¶

"And that's true of the way that we should approach whole of government as well as just within the Department of Defence."

— [00:39:08.660 --> 00:39:19.660]

Allan broadens Skinner's point on security and economic policy being siloed. This is consistent with his repeated argument that economic, security, and foreign policy need integrated governance. He endorses rather than elaborates — the guest's point is sufficient.

Guest: Rebecca Skinner — Key Themes¶

(Summarised for context; this is not an Allan-focused section.)

Joined Defence Signals Directorate (now ASD) in 1999 after career as maths/science teacher; followed her father into signals intelligence.
Career path: DSD → Defence Intelligence Organisation → PM&C secondment → US NSA as Liaison Officer → "Deputy Secretary People" → Deputy Secretary (Intelligence + Strategic/Industry Policy + Contestability) → Associate Secretary.
On the diarchy: describes it as a "buddy system" — the built-in structural check on loneliness at the top.
On reform: Defence has been reforming continuously since the Tange reforms of the 1970s; the goal is "one way of doing business" rather than duplicated processes.
On contestability: Defence has institutionalised a contestability division that asks hard questions about capability proposals; "find the person who's going to say no in the room."
On gender: took years to recognise systemic barriers rather than personal ones; the system (not the individual) needs to change; advocates for asking people directly rather than assuming family constraints.
On whole-of-government: security and economic communities were having parallel policy conversations that never met — a structural failure.

Biographical Fragments (Allan)¶

No new career fragments emerge from this episode. The main biographical observation is inferential: Allan's comfort interviewing a very senior defence official, his detailed knowledge of the Defence diarchy and its history, and his immediate recognition of Skinner's points about Canberra consensus all reinforce the picture of someone who spent decades inside Australia's national security machinery.

Style and Method Evidence¶

Interview technique: precise framing; names the generic question then refuses it; discloses his own prior view before asking for the guest's; leaves room for negative answers.
Institutional knowledge: introduces Skinner's career from memory or preparation with departmental precision; flags the diarchy as globally unusual without prompting.
Endorsement by elaboration: when Skinner makes a point he agrees with, Allan broadens it rather than merely affirming it ("that's true of the way that we should approach whole of government as well").
Characteristic timing: the bank joke lands because it is short, unexpected, and immediately released.

Open Questions¶

Allan mentions having "spent much of my professional life in the Canberra environment" — a consistent self-description, but no new specifics.
He says "I heard you speak recently to a group of your colleagues from around Canberra" — suggests Allan moves in the same senior Canberra national security social/professional circles as Skinner. He attends those forums as a peer.
No reading/watching segment in this episode.